Ryan Rutan: Welcome back to another episode of the Startup Therapy podcast. This is Ryan Ran joined as always by my friend, the founder and CEO of Startups.com, Will Schroeder. Will, we know founders who've come from all kinds of different backgrounds with all sorts of different resumes before. During after they started, some have college degrees, and many don't, and uh you you suggest that today we tee off like, what is the value of a college degree if your path was already set. For startup, right? You're like, this is what I want to go and do, right? We're not talking about if you want to become an engineer or a doctor, a lawyer, you still have to go get certified to go get a degree. But if you were planning on just building stuff, what's the value of this thing? And at the at the risk of becoming that uncle uh at Thanksgiving is convincing you to drop out of college, we might actually be right.
Wil Schroter: That scares me, and it scares me, not because I'm worried about my opinion on it, it scares me because we have such an ingrained culture that said college equals good, and anything not college equals bad, and I think particularly for founders, particularly for the people who do what we do or want to do what we do, that is bullshit. Now this isn't me knocking college. I have nothing against college, right? Like this is saying, hey, for what we do, specifically being founders, I'm not convinced that college is a given, right? In fact, if anything, I think college for many people is a step backward. Let me tee this up. Recently, last week, a buddy of mine who's done nominally well, has made over $100 million asks me if I'll sit down with his kid to just graduate high school, um, talk about a new business. He wants to start, and he says to me, he said, hey Will, just want to point out that uh my son isn't going to college. Instead he's gonna start his company. Now, of course, he's telling me, Ryan, like and I'm like that's music to my ears, right? But the way he said it, and I think it's important to open up with, the way he said it was almost like, I don't know if you can say something pre-defensively, like expecting a different response. Do you know what I mean?
Ryan Rutan: I'm sure he's gotten different responses to that and the one that would clearly be proffered by you or I or it's like. Oh yeah, I'm sure not everybody gave him that reaction.
Wil Schroter: That's where this started, OK? So in the back of my mind when he said it, I was like, you know, I kind of wish I heard this more often again. This isn't a knock against college. I'm just saying relative to what we do as founders, it is, it wouldn't be my first recommendation. So we get to lunch and we sit down and uh his son, since I've known since he's a little kid, is wonderful, right? And and and he wants to start his own business, a legit business, like a real business that makes real money, etc. and and he's talking about. Going to college. In the back of my mind, I'm not sure why. I immediately wanted to tell him what he's gonna be missing by not going to college. But that's where this whole thing started. I started doing the math in my head and I'm like, I can't come up with a single reason to tell him to go to college. And then I think of it in terms of this, Ryan, how different that is than what we grew up with. This is like the first time where that is like a very legit argument, you know what I mean? Yeah,
Ryan Rutan: man. Well, it comes from a lot of things. I think that was like, if I at my mom's generation and really more so my my grandmother's generation, who were some of the first to really start going to university and I can say en masse, but lots more people. Yeah, but they also that generation really, really worked their tails off to be able to provide that for their kids, which is like my parents' generation, right? Right. So they worked super hard and then so there was this, there was this sense of like, this was hard work, but it would compound and great things would happen. And at some point they were, right? Because they were still in the vast minority by the time everybody had one, became a A little bit less important, but I think we have this like generational expectations that's been passed on, great grandma worked really hard to pay for this for grandma. I'm talking about my kids now I'm explaining, great grandma worked really hard to pay for this for grandma. And then Grandma was so appreciative of that she had this, that she felt like she had to provide it for me without even thinking about whether it mattered. And now I have to question whether this has any value for little friend whatsoever or not, because at this point, like, with the stats on this stuff, man, like 25% of people actually work in their field of study. So yeah, you're essentially paying for a really, really expensive networking event, right? A 200K plus,
Wil Schroter: maybe even not a good one,
Ryan Rutan: right? Yeah, not even a particularly good one, right?
Wil Schroter: You and I went to the same college at Ohio State, right? And this is gonna offend so many people, particularly people that went to Ohio State. When I went there around the time that you went there, like in the early 90s, it was the equivalent of 13th. Grade, like there was nothing special about it. I love Ohio State. This isn't me knocking, but also I'm not gonna oversell it just cause I happened to attend college there, right? Like, it was no it was a giant high school. I learned nothing and met no one that I could not have met anywhere else, right? Like literally anywhere else, right? And I think about that, that it'd be different if you and I went to Stanford. OK, that is not the same answer. If you can get into Stanford, dude, go to Stanford, OK? Just because you're gonna be forced into a room of the highest achieving people on the planet. And if you can find any way to do that, whether that's through through Stanford or your dad's wealth management, uh, retreat, go do that,
Ryan Rutan: go do it, yeah.
Wil Schroter: Short of that. Right, not quite the same thing.
Ryan Rutan: It's funny, I, I go back to those experiences and in my case, the, the things that I took away from it were definitely not the education, right? There were some people that I met that were important, definitely changed my path in life, not necessarily for the reasons you might think, like one of them just happened to be a good buddy that led me to Cyprus, which is where I met my wife and then, you know, whole family resulted from that. So yes, very important things happened there that as you said, could have just as easily happened anywhere else,
Wil Schroter: right?
Ryan Rutan: There could have been a particle collision and nothing. It could have been a
Wil Schroter: roommate, it could have been a co-worker, like, I mean, it's bananas because what we do is we create this single path scenario that said the only reason you were able to do this, this thing, whatever, meet these people is because you went to this place. Now pause there for a second. That would be like saying, you're saying that if I didn't go to college, I would just sit home in a bubble boy bubble for 5 years straight and not interact with any other human.
Ryan Rutan: Careful, you're gonna piss off all of Gen Z if you're not real careful here, be real
Wil Schroter: careful. But so, so let's zoom out for a sec because I, I really wanna unpack this one, not just for us as parents, right, and who've been through this, but really for the benefit of founders and for the benefit of aspiring founders who maybe are are sitting on this decision right now or parents who are kind of like, you know, my friend that I was at lunch with and I'm like, I'm having a harder and harder time saying you have to go to college, particularly for a founder, without anything. Back it up. And before we get into it, and for people that are, you know, ready to break out the pitchforks, we're not talking about doctors. We're not talking about middle managers. We're not talking about people that want to become historians, right? So for all of you, go to college, right, and enjoy it. We're talking specifically about the, the value of if you want to become a founder, if that is your vocation or what you want to do, is college the best path?
Ryan Rutan: And by the way, if, if you came out with a pitchfork, get your ass back in the. and shovel some shit and let us tell you about what the future looks like,
Wil Schroter: OK? I'd be terrified. So, OK, so, so first off, let's let's go through the obvious, uh, things, right? Let's talk about the economics. The economics of current education. OK. So if we're talking about just the degree, OK, this is crazy, just the degree, not the room and board and everything else that comes with it. Average in-state degree 4 years, it's really 5 years is $100,000 right? So that is a $100,000 of real investment for an in-state school, in-state
Ryan Rutan: state funded school. Correct,
Wil Schroter: right? Heavily subsidized. If you go to the not subsidized version, you go to a private university, $220,000. Again, that is before all the other requisite costs. We don't need to tell anybody that student loans are crushing everybody and they're overwhelming, etc. But Ryan, you and I both as as parents ran a little math recently.
Ryan Rutan: We sure did. And napkin got a lot longer than I expected.
Wil Schroter: As to how much it costs, write that check for your kids versus what you could have otherwise done for them with that money. What, what math at a high level did you run?
Ryan Rutan: So look, it was just the, the, the compounding over time, like even just starting with something as simple and basic as that, which isn't all that there is to be said for that, right? Because there's also the the time opportunity cost. But just on the purely on the financial side, if you look at what you could do with that same amount of money, and you know, you and I were taking this all the way back down to where our kids are now, which is in in grade school where we're paying to send them to private schools, that stuff compounds and you add that to the university costs, all of a sudden. We're looking at millions of dollars and and a cash flow of 500 to $10,000 in an annuity for their entire life if they forego these amazing experiences of of private school in the 13th grade, right? Yep, it's like, it's hard to ignore. It's hard to ignore. and look, something else that doesn't account for Will, which is that there's the cost of that degree. You said there's there's you weren't including the cost of. like room and board, but the vast majority of people are financing this stuff, which means you are also paying interest on this, the compounded price. So not only, not only are you not only compounding your your time and your money loss at the beginning, you're combating the amount of time and the amount of money that it takes you to overcome that, right? So it gets really shitty really quick.
Wil Schroter: I want to run two scenarios on the numbers, OK? Uh, scenario number one, I take, I take whatever debt I'm, I'm gonna incur. It's called $100,000 or whatever it's gonna be $200,000. And then I apply compounding over 25 years and whatever that comes out to, and it comes out something bananas like $300,000.
Ryan Rutan: I did it. I have it right here in front of me. OK. If you compound, I did it at $220. I did it at $220 which was a stat I came up with, I think that was the average cost of university. City overall, right? So that may include some room and board, whatever it is what it is. 220,000 compound. And I went ahead and did it for 45 years because I thought we'll just go from $20 to retirement age, right? OK, sure. Just for funsies at a low end return, 6 to 8%, you're going to end up with somewhere between 7 and $9 million.
Wil Schroter: Pause for a second. I just want I want the audience to understand. We're saying, taking that money, remember that's net of taxes in order for you to get that, right? Taking that same money instead of giving it to a university, you just, you put it retirement
Ryan Rutan: S&P index fund that gets 6 to 8% per year. If you get closer to the actual market return of 8 to 10%, that turns into $17.54 million.
Wil Schroter: Seriously, yep. God damn. That's
Ryan Rutan: 45 years. That's a long period of time. It's also the same amount of time that you would normally work, and I'd love to know how many college graduates end up with all that extra money they make thanks to the degree of $17.5 million to retire on.
Wil Schroter: OK, how about this one? I ran the numbers for my kids who are both in a private school. OK, 12 years of private school. OK. Tuition is it breaks out to about 3. $1000 per month per kid, OK? So that's $6000 a month. Over the course of 12 years, it's actually a little bit longer, say kindergarten stuff, but the course of 12 years, net, I'm gonna drop about a million dollars on their education. By the way, this is before they go to college. Yep, OK. Now, ran a little bit of math on that and terrified my wife in the process, OK? I said, OK, so how do we just take in that same amount of money, OK? And instead of sending it to the school, we sent it to our money manager, right, to invest, OK? We were looking at a slightly higher return on money, about 12%, which actually, I mean, if you really track the S&P, it's done fairly well, but let's just bear with me.
Ryan Rutan: I was accounting for some things. Things like inflation. So,
Wil Schroter: no, no, no doubt, no doubt. So, so this is not inflation adjusted or anything else like that, which would be a meaningful offset. If we did nothing but that, OK, this, this one's gonna be even simpler. I'm not even using compounding. If we took all the money that we were otherwise going to send them through private school, uh, again, this is before college, and just put it in a money market account or or like an index fund or whatever, right? By the end of, by the time they graduated high school, our dowry gift to each of them, let's say combined, would be a million dollars, OK? So here's what we'd say to our kids, before you consider college, remember that a million dollars, that's going to be generating 12% a year will generate $120,000 for the two of you for life. That's assuming you spent it and you didn't reinvest it and compound if you compound it, you get Ryan's number. But what I'm saying is if you spent every penny. Any of that return, you would each have $6000 before you rolled out of bed every year for the rest of your life, every month for every year I'm sorry, I'm sorry, yeah, every month, right? So hold on, I'm, I'm gonna do the rest of this this calculation real quick. So $6000 times 12 $72,000 a year we're doing 45 years, $3.2 million per kid. $3.2 million that's just over
Ryan Rutan: 45 years spend it every month
Wil Schroter: and they spent it.
Ryan Rutan: The asset balance is still there.
Wil Schroter: 100%. And so, when we talk about, it's totally worth it economically, compared to what? Compared to like, like, seriously, you can't say that it's worth it, and then refuse to quantify it when you put actual dollars toward it. So let's, let's just all agree that the, the cost of education, that the net cost of education. Has clearly gotten beyond what could, what most people could reasonably return with that same money. Yeah, OK 100%. And so when folks retreat from that argument, they immediately go into, yes, but those are the formative years of your life, and those are, you know, years that that you're gonna meet people and evolve as a human and and have these experiences. OK,
Ryan Rutan: we weren't suggesting to lock you into a sarcophagus for for 56 years and then release you back into the wild. Yeah, like, look guys, we're gonna use the Han Solo cryo chamber. We're just gonna freeze you because we don't even want to have to feed you during this period while we're saving this money for your future. We're just gonna put you into stasis.
Wil Schroter: OK, so, but, but let's go take this further. Remember we're talking about founders. So Ryan, let's say that each of us, hey, you remember the movie Trading Places from the 80s? Oh yeah, let's say you've got Dan Aykroyd and I've got Eddie Murphy, OK? And uh we're betting on which one's going to do better, OK? My Eddie Murphy starts his own company, OK? You're Dan Aykroyd, he goes to college. Within the 5 years on average that that they're going to evolve over the next 5 years, which one of those two is likely to come out further ahead?
Ryan Rutan: Is the first test beer pong? Because if so, I've got you, but hands down.
Wil Schroter: Here's where it gets interesting. When people run this calculation, like where, where could that time have been better used for five years? They make so many mistakes in this calculation. The first mistake they make is they're like, well, my kid, you know, wasn't mature enough, isn't, you know, blah blah blah, isn't cool, then we're not talking about your kid, right? Like, by the way, we're talking about people that were planning on becoming founders now, right? Like my buddy who I was. Ask me to mentor his kid at lunch is ready to become a founder now.
Ryan Rutan: Yeah, man, that's the thing, like university for somebody who's planning to be a founder is just a really expensive procrastination tool. Unbelievable. The only way I can see it. Here's here's something else. I want to get your take on this, because here's an intangible, right? It ties back to the finances of it. But with with student loan debt just hit what, like 1.75 trillion or something, it's it's it's a massive amount of money, right? So here's, here's something that occurred to me the other day. We've created an entire generation of people who are now maybe not completely risk averse, but they're now less risk tolerant because they have this debt anchor hanging around the neck. So there's there's a limit to what you can do, you know, like, look, I got a $1000 a month student loan payment. I can't not have an income, or I can't reduce, I can't be ram and profitable while also paying my student loans. So I'm, I'm worried that we've created an entire generation of people who are going to be employees simply because they can't afford to take the risk of being a founder.
Wil Schroter: and they'll tell you the same. They'll tell you the same. Now, let's keep our, our little experiment, uh, going, OK? So my Eddie Murphy goes out there, starts his own company, OK? Now, a couple interesting things happened in that time. I'm gonna first I'm gonna use one scenario where he's actually not successful, OK? In other words, like most founders, he starts something, it doesn't work out, tries another thing, doesn't work out, tries another thing doesn't work out. Yeah, OK,
Ryan Rutan: which by the way, you could do in that same period of time. You could fail 3 startups in the same amount of time it takes and still be ahead financially, probably.
Wil Schroter: Let me lay out a couple different things. The first massive mess that people make when they try to use this argument, at 18 to 23, again, we're using a 5 year window for college. A 18 to 23, you have by far the most fungible years of your life, OK, as evidenced by people going to college. In other words, if, if, if, if my Eddie Murphy were to swing for the fences and absolutely miss, it doesn't matter. Ryan, how many times in life are you allowed to Just go for it, right? Put everything on the line, miss completely, and have it actually not matter. Try that to a 42 year old Eddie Murphy with 3 kids and a mortgage. Not gonna happen, right? You're taking somebody who has the greatest flexibility to take risk at a time when all they can do is learn and expand and taking it away from them. You're saying, oh, go do this other thing where you're in a classroom.
Ryan Rutan: At best you're rate limiting it. Right, at best you're rate limiting it, right? At worst they're gonna have a completely change different and worse experience. At best you're rate limiting that because you're putting them into an extremely rigid system. It just has to be by definition.
Wil Schroter: I did it, you did it, OK, so, so I'll I'll give my own experience here. I started my first company when I was 19, I was a student at Ohio State, and I hated school. Now this isn't because I, I love learning. I hated school, OK? And these two things aren't mutually exclusive, right? So, so what happens was, uh, I'd go to class and they would hand me one book and say you have the whole semester to read this one book, your digestion of it is going to be uh quantified and qualified by how well you recite it on a test. It turns out I'm actually really bad at taking tests, but I'm great at learning. And that's how this whole thing works. And I remember I got through like the first semester and I was like dumbfounded. I was like, why am I paying? This is what I'm paying for? Yeah, to tell me to read a book? What?
Ryan Rutan: And then try to trick me, read a book and then we're gonna try to trick you. That's the, that's the game, right?
Wil Schroter: I was like, I was like, oh, but no, but we also have classes, we have, we have classes where we'll sit and lecture to you where you tell me exactly what I just read in the book. I'm simplifying and not every class and every. every teacher works there, but it's pretty much my experience, OK? And so after a while I'm like, hey, I love this economics course. Why don't I just read the whole book now, right? And they were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you can't read the whole book
Ryan Rutan: now do with the other 9 weeks, idiot.
Wil Schroter: It's like why is, what is taking tests my my road to learning? Anyway, so I drop out. And you know, I, I've said this before, I go to my guidance counselor, and this is like circa 9293, and I'm like, uh no, 93, and I'm like, hey, uh I want to drop out of college and I want to start an internet company. And her first question was, what's the internet? Like there was a time where nobody knew. So I ended up starting this company. And by the time my peers, the very people that I was like, still had as roommates, by the way, by the time they had graduated college, and by the time they were looking for their first jobs, like entering the workforce, at's call it 22, 23, I already owned a home. I'd already been running my company for years. I, I was, my, my resume said CEO, right? Like, I was light years ahead of where they were, and not only that, they would never catch up. Because if you started that early at that much of a of a a forward progression, it's almost impossible by someone else's rate limiting to ever catch up.
Ryan Rutan: It's compounding at work in the same way, right? Not only in financial terms, but the the same compounding occurs. We start stacking up those, those experiences, that resume early on, it just continues to grow from there, right? And it
Wil Schroter: snowballs. Build on that, right, cause I wanna ask you this. Take your experience because you started an agency too. Think of how quickly you learned because you didn't have a boss, meaning like, you weren't Rate limited by being the intern, right? Compared to your peers who had to then take their degree, get whatever job was afforded to them, and work at their pace and learn at their pace. How is that different? You learning at your own pace,
Ryan Rutan: it was night and day because not only was I learning at my own pace, I was learning the things I needed to execute in the industry I wanted to be in. They're being taught from an economics book, right? Not that the principles of macroeconomics aren't important, that the principles of microeconomics aren't important, but like taught at the level that they are, it's so far from how you would actually apply any of that stuff, that it is completely irrelevant. So it wasn't just the pace of learning, it was what I was learning in particular.
Wil Schroter: That's my point,
Ryan Rutan: absolutely changed the pace and the outcomes. Right, like, let's just even say forget, hold pace aside. Let's say we both learned at exactly the same pace. The challenge is the stuff that they learned wasn't relevant or useful, and the stuff that I did was, they go, well I learned just as fast as Ryan. Yeah, but you learned some shit we don't need you to do, so what are we gonna do with it? We gotta start you here. He can start here.
Wil Schroter: You know, something that's really funny about everything we talk about here is that none of it is new. Everything you're dealing with right now has been done 1000 times before you, which means the answer already exists, you may just not know it, but that's OK. That's kind of what we're here to do. We talk about this stuff on the show, but we actually solve these problems all day long at groups. Dostartups.com. So if any of this sounds familiar, stop guessing about what to do. Let us just give you the answers to the test and be done with it. Also, this is again, this whole conversation is specific to founders. Founders need such a broad skill set of things to learn. If I'm a founder, I have to have some fundamental knowledge of finance, of marketing. Of product development and depending I think code, it could be manufactured, it could be sales. I had to learn all of those things.
Ryan Rutan: Wait, Will, did you just throw a hand grenade into the whole, but we want to create well rounded individuals argument for university too, at the same time, did you just do
Wil Schroter: that? In my limited experience in college, and again, I'll go back to, I love to learn. I absolutely love to learn.
Ryan Rutan: You still
Wil Schroter: do it on
Ryan Rutan: a daily basis. I want you.
Wil Schroter: Yeah, yeah, that's my thing, but I, I found college to be incredibly rate limiting. I wanted to learn and act and do much faster than college was possibly just
Ryan Rutan: read and read and listen and listen and read and read and read and test.
Wil Schroter: I wanted to be in the business of getting shit done, not in the business of taking tests, right? And, and that's, that's what my experience was. Had the experience been different, if college wasn't about testing or because I wanted to become a founder, it turned out, had they been the best possible place for me to become a founder, right, I would have been fired up, like I, I would have never left. Yeah, right, it was
Ryan Rutan: a startup but they weren't or something or just, yeah, something other than what it actually is.
Wil Schroter: And so when I look at things that that I learned that I was, you kind of turned on to that were uh outside my field of. Here's some interesting ones. Number one, my field of study was theater, which is ironic because I didn't care about theater whatsoever, but I took it because it had the lowest academic requirements and I figured is the one thing I couldn't fail out of, but that's here nor there. And but as part of that, I was forced to take a philosophy class and I loved it, right? Absolutely loved philosophy, right? And I dug in deep and I started getting into all kinds of books that weren't recommended, you know, as part of the the curriculum. I took an economics course, blew my mind, OK? Now mind you, I'm also 18 years old, so kind of whatever you put in front of me, this is gonna blow my mind, right? Of course it's like I'm like I don't know anything. So I can't say like college gave that to me. Anybody that would have handed me a book,
Ryan Rutan: a book, any kind of information, a little bit of context and and we were off to races,
Wil Schroter: yeah. And so the idea that I needed college to be able to access that information, first off is dated as hell, right? In the last 5 years, and Ryan, you and I share stories about this all the time. In the last 5 years, I've gone down so many learning rabbit holes, right? I've learned 3D modeling, I've learned architecture, I've learned code, I've learned, you know, stable diffusion, AI, I, I've learned like all of this stuff, and it would never occur to me in a million years to take a college course to to learn anything. I've learned cabinet making, right? I'm a professional cabinet maker. I've never been.
Ryan Rutan: You taught me how to make cabinets based on your learnings.
Wil Schroter: Yeah, exactly, exactly. So like, this idea that college has this monopoly effect on learning is bananas to me because like in what year is that true? Certainly not in 2025. It's
Ryan Rutan: got a couple more tools these days. I, I think I told you this story already, but I learned Python while I was still in university, right? I took a Python course. I learned Python. Well, then enough time went by that I had basically forgotten Python. And so what did I do? I went and learned it from a 12 year old. I think it's 12:13. I mean, I'm not, I'm not kidding, I'm not making this up. 1213, 14 year old on YouTube. I getting that ROI in terms of the amount of time that I spent on it was not much. The amount of money I spent on it was zero apart from having to consume a couple of ads. Try getting that from a tenured professor, right? I dare you.
Wil Schroter: Again, when we're talking specifically about becoming a founder. There as as Liam Neeson say, a certain set of tools that you need. The way I look at it is for the things that we need, most of it can't be taught as much as it has to be learned in the distinction there, learned by doing, not taught by preaching. When you and I sit down, we coach founders all day long. This is literally what we do all day. What we do is we say, here's roughly where you need to be pointed. Now go do. And that way you'll learn. And I've never seen it done otherwise. I've never been able to teach it to you, so you didn't have to learn it in the case of being a family.
Ryan Rutan: I think, I think by the time we, we try to encapsulate enough knowledge that it is even worth teaching in that traditional sense, the half life of what we learn in college now is shrinking faster than the time it takes to graduate. That's part of the problem. It's expired before you get to use it.
Wil Schroter: Yeah, we, we get in this whole thing where like, in the, in the whole time that we've hired people, and in my 31 year career, I've hired thousands of people. I have never ever, ever heard one person in a meeting say, oh, you know what, here's the answer. I learned this in college, unless it was like the most bizarre like one off thing that like had nothing to do with what we were talking about. And again, if, if you say well hell who holy. Again, these are all the colleges in a trade school. OK, then if you want to learn a trade, don't go there. Like if your trade is being a founder, then it's, that's not the right fit for you. I feel like this idea of saying college might be the wrong fit has become this taboo thing that we're not allowed to say
Ryan Rutan: why. Why is it still a taboo, right? Like why would parents rather their kid get a philosophy degree than attempt starting a million dollar business. Right, I, I guess one of them fits on a bumper sticker, the other one doesn't, I don't know, like.
Wil Schroter: My takeaway has always been that for a very long time, certainly in the United States here, um, it has been instantiated that college equals success, or more specifically, what we really are saying and nobody's allowed to say it is. College separates you from the unsuccessful. OK. And what that used to mean is that it's an agriculture job, and by the way, I'm not knocking people in agriculture. It's a manufacturing job, not knocking people in manufacturing. But the idea was that if you went to college. You would separate yourself from your peers that would otherwise do manual or
Ryan Rutan: unskilled the financial side of the tracks delineation, right? Right. The problem is now you're looking at you on the other side like there's only 6 people over on the other side now. What what what are we all doing over here, right? who's actually doing those jobs now? Where, where's our food and our manufacturing gonna come from?
Wil Schroter: To be fair, that same argument existed when I was growing up. Around getting a diploma. You gotta get your high school diploma, right? And then it just became table stakes. It was, of course, people have a diploma. Now, and this is what's pissing people off, a bachelor's degree has become so meaningless across so many things that paying this massive premium to essentially get table stakes and to your point, where you look around the room and everybody's already there to begin with. So I I think that's dangerous, and then this notion has become college is this great separator. Yes, but that doesn't mean it's the only separator. Like like that is not the only way to separate yourself, and what I tell uh young people now who are going through, you know, high school, etc. I said, if you're relying on college to separate yourself, you are screwed from the jump, because college will no longer separate you. It's, it's not what you learn in college, it's what you do when you're young. It's the experience you you get. You don't wanna be 22 with a diploma, you want to be 22 with a resume, and the difference is doing. No,
Ryan Rutan: 100%, that's what it comes down to, right? I and I think that we've, we've confused credentials with capability, right? LinkedIn loves degrees, but you know what customers and employers love? Solutions, skills, outcomes, right?
Wil Schroter: Did you scale a customer acquisition campaign? Yes or no? Yeah, exactly,
Ryan Rutan: right? That's what it comes down to. So, you know, I think the but but to your point, like the diploma, degree, industrial complex is real. And and again, part of that's that generational thing I was talking about at the beginning, right? Part of it is almost to some degree it's an ego thing saying I can provide this for you, child, right, whether you need it or not, again, I'm gonna give this to you because that makes me feel good. But I feel again, like I'm. To come back to what I said before, I feel like it's costing us a not an entire generation, but it is reducing at least geometrically, the number of people who are going to start a business because they have the pressure to go to university, and once they do that, then they have the pressure to get ROI from that degree, which we can talk about that in a second, and then there's the, the fact they probably have debt hanging around their neck, which is going to keep them from having the risk tolerance to start in the first place.
Wil Schroter: But let's take it back to the premise here. Is that the best path if you want to become a founder? If you want to become a founder, how is it that the 5 years you're going to invest in college will have a better ROI for becoming a founder than 5 years you're gonna invest actually starting a company? What are you gonna have as a starting place at 23 years old, having graduated college to become a founder that you wouldn't have had, that you'd have lost out on by having just Started any business, whether it's successful or not, in running it for 5 years or running, you know, the next business, the next business, the next business. When you start something, you are force fed education at a fire hose rate, right? Ryan, when you and I started our businesses, we both started uh interactive agencies. We had to learn sales, we had to learn finance, and what was fascinating to me is that I generally like when I was sitting in a classroom, right, I would zone out so fast. Right, I've zone out so fast, but as soon as you said this information has consequence for you, I was like, Rain Man, right? Like I was just like all about it, either the Einstein in the room, right? Doing and starting my own business, like I'll give you an example. When I was in high school and in college, I never made it past math 050. 050 is so remedial that you're not even to the hundreds yet. I was like I didn't know that 101. Yeah, I do because I failed algebra in freshman year of high school and never completed algebra all the way through my sophomore year of college. OK. Now, now I want to pause on that. So clearly I'm not sweet at algebra, but I've been a CFO for 25 years now. I'm the startups.com CFO. I'm pretty good with numbers actually. I'm pretty good with numbers, but I'm not great at algebra. Now just. Pause there for a second. The moment you said, well, here are things with variables, and variables could create conditions that you're trying to get to. And if you put dollar signs in front of those variables, that is your income we're talking about. You can have house if you solve for X. You could not have house if you don't solve for X. Yes. Oh wow, all of a sudden got real important. My point is, when you force someone young with that. Big sponge of a brain, especially a founder, into situations where they have to learn customer acquisition, they have to learn, uh, finance, etc. they are gonna learn geometrically faster than they would possibly have to learn because they have a test coming up. It's not even remotely close, and I think that alone is a powerful motivator.
Ryan Rutan: We kind of jumped out of order because I feel like we got into college, doesn't have monopoly on learning, then we jump back to taboo.
Wil Schroter: Yeah, that's why I call it out because the way the conversation was going, it made more sense to cover that. Yeah.
Ryan Rutan: I just know how if you want to begin the wind down from here, when to close out.
Wil Schroter: It's a bit of the the the end of taboo to say this out loud, and it's a bit of a restart the conversation. Founders don't. Look at what everybody else is doing. That's sort of the point. If you're a founder, your first thought is, hey, yeah, that worked for everybody else, but I'm gonna go over here because that's not what works for me. Why don't you open up that part? Like, hey, well, this is like fundamental in how founders think. If they weren't questioning college, they probably wouldn't be founders to begin with.
Ryan Rutan: Yeah, I mean this feels fundamental. Well, this is like founder 101. We, we look at things differently, right? We think about risk tolerance, we think about opportunity costs in a different way. If you weren't already somehow questioning the value of a of a university degree, you probably aren't exactly on the founder path, at least not yet, right? Some people don't discover this up until later, like they go work a shitty job for a couple of years and realize like I am never gonna make back the money I spent on this thing, um, and I'm not even in the field that I graduated from, and I'm underemployed and and and and and. Like, this is kind of like the the the threads of the fabric we're weaving anyways,
Wil Schroter: isn't it? It's a bit of a litmus test, right? Like, and again, this isn't say if you go to college, you can't be a founder. It's saying if you're meant to be a founder, and you weren't questioning things like this, like, hey, this is what everybody else does, it's probably not your default condition. I the reason I was running to my guidance counselor when I was. 19 years old, like giddy as can be about dropping out of college, was because I looked at the full equation, and I was like, this is a giant waste of my time. And it was, and I, and I don't look at college as this, oh my God, it's, it's, you know, it's it's untouchable. No, college is a service. It's something I pay money for and it delivers or it doesn't. Now, there's nothing wrong with the college I went to. I was not right for college. It's that simple.
Ryan Rutan: The outcome you wanted in life didn't map back to starting with college.
Wil Schroter: Yeah, they're like, hey, if you follow this path in 5 years, you'll be able to start doing what you want to do. I'm like, why? What's wrong with I want to wait 5 years? Yeah, right, I wanna do it now. Like you're in my way for a certain number of people, and I think this is highly relevant to many founders. The idea of going through this kind of structured, we're gonna feed you as we go and we'll tell you. Which pace you've advanced is absolutely antithetical to how we're built. Like, to me that is torture. It's not an accelerant.
Ryan Rutan: That's the part that sounds like heresy to us. That's the part that sounds like it, it's just absolutely crazy. Look, like you said, college, college isn't evil. It's just optional, and especially, especially for founders, but we begin to treat optional like. Heresy, it's not, right? Because again, to us, the opposite sounds true. You're saying like, hang on, you're gonna spend 4 to 6 years preparing me for the real world by keeping me away from most of the things I'm gonna do in the real world. I why? Right to your point, like, why can't I just start doing that stuff now? What, what is it, why do I need to sit on a lab bench for 5 or 6 years if I've got tools I can just start doing something now.
Wil Schroter: I remember uh a buddy of mine, actually guy you know as well, um, he's still in college, right? And he's like senior year, he, uh, he's still at his his his frat house right on campus, and uh he and I were going out that night, and he said, hey, can you pick me up? I was like, oh yeah, sure, I'll I'll be by, you know, whatever time. So I pull up and it was still light outside, it was like like 8:30 in the evening on a like in a late spring or something like that, and I pull up. It dawns on me, because Ryan, I've been so heads down at this point, that everything that I pull up to is a bunch of bikes chained up to a chain link fence, right? It's like one kid with like a 1982 Datsun, and I'm pulling up in a new Lamborghini, right? And I'm thinking to myself, I could have pulled up on a bike. In fact, like a few years ago, that's exactly what I was riding. I'm using Lamborghini as as a comparison, although that is what happened, but I'm using that as an example, like it's a comparison for me to say, what did I just give up? Now, a lot of people will jump on that and say, yeah, well, maybe things went well for you, but they didn't go well for uh yeah, I'm saying, it didn't have to be that outcome. It could have been anything else. It could have been something as simple as I have income and my friends don't even have a job yet. That justifies it for me, right? But I, I thought about, had I stayed on that path as a founder, how much I would have given up, how much I would have given up. And by the way, back then, it was heresy to say I'm dropping out of college. You, like, my grandmother cried when she heard I dropped out of college. I, I'll never forget, she was so disappointed in me. She was like, you're the first person in the family, you know, that's gone to college and. Well, I'm the first person to drop out too. And like I was, I was thinking like how bad I felt where I should have been proud. I was made to feel shitty about it. I, I, I, I think that's a loss. I mean, like if, if you're kiddos now were to say, hey, dad, I don't want to go to college, but I want to be a founder, I could see, you know, you supporting that. But if they said I don't want to go to college because I just don't think it's worth it and it's not something I want to pursue, what would be your response to that?
Ryan Rutan: You know, I, I would want to understand more about why. So I think that's that's the interesting thing about, you know, your your grandmother, anybody questioning this, this whole notion of like you were, you know, you felt sad and and and and shamed instead of feeling happy with the decision. And the reality is like you decided to go to university, extremely arbitrarily, right? Because there was a very, very vague promise of better on other side. It's just that, right? But lots of cost up front, lots of time upfront, all that stuff, whereas the other path, you know, you had objectively chosen at that point. You were very sure and clear, you had already started the company, you were already doing something. It wasn't like you were like, hey, I'm gonna quit so I can do this. You're like, I'm already doing this, I need to quit. And so I think that would be my, my, not push back necessarily, but that's what I would encourage them to explore is like, OK, I understand you don't want to do this and you don't think it's worth it. What do you think is more worth it? I want to know what the alternative is. Don't tell me you're not doing this. Tell me what you are doing, right? I am not pursuing university. Cool, what are you pursuing? As long as you're pursuing something, great, right? And even if that's, look, I want to find out what happens if I just surf for the next 5 years, because here's the plan I have on the other side of that. OK, cool, let's talk about that. Like I'm not, I don't, I don't have a rigid sense for what I think they need or want to do, as long as I feel like they have given the exploration, the amount of time that it's due, and that they're they're basing on something at least to be fully objective can be some subjectivity to it, but it's not just arbitrary like, well, college sounds lame, I don't want to do it. OK, cool. You still got 24 hours to feel like everybody else, so what are you gonna do with it?
Wil Schroter: I think for a lot of people, this idea that college equals success in some cases may have some truth to it, it may have it, right?
Ryan Rutan: But I think, I think it's diminishing. Yeah, I think for some people to your point, it still absolutely will, yes, figuring out who those people are is the challenge at this point.
Wil Schroter: My daughter wants to become a cardiologist. I'm pretty sure she should just go around on her own, learn off YouTube and try some, some, some test heart transplants like in order to be a
Ryan Rutan: market man, there's probably a market like I can't afford a real heart surgeon. How many have you watched?
Wil Schroter: Right, right. So yes, again, you know, uh uh an academic pursuit might make sense. However, I will say this, I think we have to restart this conversation. I think for all of us, we, it's particularly for founders, particularly for founders, we can't keep saying college is the only answer. I think the new path for kids coming out of high school, looking at college, we have to say if you want to be a founder, and these are the things you want to accomplish, and these are the things. You need to learn. What are your different paths to doing it and where does college rank? On its own merits, not based on some myth that we've created over the years, on its own merits, on its own cost, is it the number one place that you can invest your time, which is the most important thing, your attention, as well as your money. And if it's not, college goes out and you know what you do? You start your own company like we all do.
Ryan Rutan: Overthinking your startup because you're going it alone, you don't have to, and honestly, you shouldn't because instead, you can learn directly from peers who've been in your shoes. Connect with bootstrapped founders and the advisors helping them win in the Startups.com community. Check out the startups.com community at www.startups.com to see if it's for you. Could be just the thing you need. I hope to see you inside.