Ryan Rutan: Welcome back to the episode of the Startup Therapy podcast. This is Ryan Routan joined as always by my friend, the founder and CEO of Startups.com, Will Schroeder. Well, we've had very, very interesting relationships with our startups with our work over the years. It's necessarily what I would call healthy. We poured a lot of time and love into them and sometimes they've given back to us, but I don't think we've ever really truly demanded much back from our startups, but it's not necessarily true for everybody else. And so I think we got to talk about like the difference between being a founder and and how to balance some of that stuff out and of what it looks like for the rest of the world. For example, you ever called a friend at 2 o'clock in the afternoon on a Tuesday to find them floating in a pool and just found yourself incredulous.
Wil Schroter: I remember I told you this story after it happened, this is like a year ago, and I'm driving home, I actually, it's funny, I was driving home after teaching the entrepreneurship class at my my kids' school, and I was calling a friend of mine cause he's kind of like on route to where I was headed next. And that was 2 o'clock on a Tuesday, a beautiful like summer afternoon or. Spring afternoon and I'm like, uh, hey man, uh, what are you up to? He's a senior executive at a public, uh, technology company, right? And he's a sales executive, right? His whole life he has been on the ground selling, right? Like he understands performance metrics better than anyone
Ryan Rutan: except when he's in the water.
Wil Schroter: OK, so, so he's also one of my oldest friends and so I think. Hey man, what are you doing? And he said, uh, I'm in the pool. I'm like, huh? Uh, like, what do you mean? He's like, yeah, I'm sitting in a floaty floating in my pool. I'm like, this is, this is what's so funny, right? I was like, how? I was incredulous. Like, how could you possibly at 2 o'clock on a Tuesday when there's work to be done, yeah,
Ryan Rutan: there's work to be done. Lis depend on you, sir.
Wil Schroter: And so my first thought was to fire him. My second thought was that it doesn't work for me. It doesn't work
Ryan Rutan: for me, yeah, I can't. I could throw him a cinder block in the pool.
Wil Schroter: But here's the best part. Here's the best part, like, and again, I've got a great relationship with I've known him for a long time. My response was kind of like, how, like how could you possibly do that? And it is all he said, he goes, makes me happy.
Ryan Rutan: Makes me happy. And,
Wil Schroter: and,
Ryan Rutan: oh, thanks for making it worse right now. I really don't
Wil Schroter: understand. I was like that's the worst answer ever, right? And, and again, I'm, I'm telling this story to set the premise here of what a toxic relationship with work looks like, and we're not talking about his. We're talking about mine, right? Like it didn't occur to me, like the first blush, you get, I'm, I'm not that like one dimensional, but it didn't occur to me that you could just do that, that you could just be sitting on a Tuesday in the middle of the work week in your pool because it made you feel good. Yeah I was like, there's gotta be some business purpose to what's going on, right? And that's where our story begins.
Ryan Rutan: We dig deep enough into it, you can find that, right? Like I think as founders we often conflate hustle with value, and you know, we think if we're not, if we're not chained to our laps 24/7, we're slacking and not the kind of slack where we're we're talking to the rest of our team, not that slack, like just the not doing anything kind of slacking. Guess what? Like, productivity can be floating in a pool at 2 p.m. if it recharges your brain, if it gives you the energy you need to go back in and and do the things, right? Like we know. What the the cost of burnout is, this is the cost of the therapy that keeps us from getting there, I suppose.
Wil Schroter: Yeah, and you know, one of the things we do a lot of on this podcast and 300 episodes. I mean, like, you know,
Ryan Rutan: we've 297 or 8 or
Wil Schroter: something. Oh damn, I didn't even realize it was that close. I I round it up for charity. When I think about, you know, all the topics we've covered, and some folks know this because some folks that listen know us. Most of what we talk about here is a reflection of our own journeys. This is Ryan and I in our own. Therapy. The startup therapy we're generally talking about is ours. So and a lot of people will come, they'll say like, hey, it just sounds like I'm in the middle of a conversation of two people like unpacking something between them. It's because you are like that's actually what's happening.
Ryan Rutan: Do you remember back, like this is 2017, 18 somewhere in there where we were like, we should do a podcast. And then we were like, what should we talk about? And we went through all kinds of iterations like startup daily, we could cover some news, we could do all this different stuff. And then finally we're like, you know, what about those conversations we Every week anyways, where we're just talking about like what are you going through? What are you going through? how are you dealing with it? What have you been through? And they're like, what if we just hit record? Yep. And then we did. And so here we are. So to your point, it is very much just listening in on the conversations of two people who live through this stuff
Wil Schroter: daily. And the irony is, if you listen to this long and like man, those guys really need therapy, which is totally true.
Ryan Rutan: Not anymore. Yeah, yeah, a weekly basis.
Wil Schroter: I say this to to set the tone to say a lot of this isn't us talking down to founders saying, here's what you're. wrong. This is in real time saying this is what we're doing wrong right now, right, that and the self-awareness of it of being able to say, hey, you know, something's broken, doesn't make it go away. I want to start there. For me, I'll just kind of point to myself here. I've spent the last 31 years in a very specific kind of mindset, which is, if I'm working, I'm valuable and OK, and if I'm not working, I'm guilty and not. Now, that is wildly unhealthy. I just want to be. Clear, right, wildly unhealthy pays well, but it's wildly unhealthy.
Ryan Rutan: You said
Wil Schroter: this
Ryan Rutan: before, but it's, it's, it was fear motivation. Yep, right, yep. And, and, and it's about safety, right? So for you, it's like if I'm working, I don't have to be afraid because it creates safety for me, right? So as long as I'm working, I'm safe. 100. Yeah, I mean that's that's a lot to deal with. It is right? It's it's a hell of a lot to unpack.
Wil Schroter: I think what we build up with that is a tolerance for discomfort, right? And in in so many ways. So in the way my buddy is floating in a pool and he's saying, hey, I am not comfortable at work. Right this minute, I'm gonna go do something comfortable. My response to to not enough comfort is work more because that will somehow create more comfort and sometimes it does, right? But I guess what I'm saying is if we zoom out as founders and we say, hey, is my relationship with my startup healthy? Ergo, does it pay me back in more ways than cash as much as I put into it? For everybody listening,
Ryan Rutan: like, I'd say 99% of you can listen to this and me just say, probably not. Yeah, there's gonna be a few of you who are like, no, I actually have a very, very healthy relationship with this, yeah, most of us don't.
Wil Schroter: And for those of you that do, please create a podcast. Ryan and I would love to listen to it and I can follow along and and and
Ryan Rutan: do what you can know that tells me I'm wrong.
Wil Schroter: But for kind of everybody else, I think part of it is because when we go into this, Ryan, like when we start something, you start something from nothing. It is, it's it's a voluminous amount of. Weight in work and commitment, discomfort and frustration. I think because we come to expect that it builds a pattern behavior where we just assume that's how it always has to be. It's essentially starting in an abusive relationship and using the abuse as the baseline for how the relationship works. That's how it functions.
Ryan Rutan: Yeah, you know, I think it and again like there's there's reasons for all this, right? Part of it is that when we breathe life into something new, that's it. We're literally breathing life into it. Without us, there isn't anything at the idea stage, even at the early operational stages. Without us, it doesn't do anything. It's as if we're we're constantly having to give the business CPR and if we stop, we know exactly what happens. Yeah, yeah, there comes a point at which that's no longer necessary, but man, the muscle memory is built at that point and We've wrapped our entire being up in being the thing that keeps it alive, and it's just a matter of momentum and being able to recognize it and going like, OK, it actually can survive without me. But man, that's a, that's a tough moment to spot.
Wil Schroter: Part of it too is it's all consuming. There is no startup that won't just consume all of you if you let it, right? It is endlessly hungry. If I decide to spend 16 hours straight today at my computer at my desk working. The startup will consume all of it. The startup will never tell me, hey, it's time to go home. The startup will never tell me, hey, you're pretty tired. You should probably go get some rest, right? The startup will never tell me, do you know you're developing a terminal disease because of this, right? Like, none of that will ever happen. The startup will consume as much as we give it, and that's where the danger begins, because we start to believe that because it can consume all of our time, it should consume. All of our time, right? And it, it took me a long time to start to understand that balance. Ryan, you said something, uh, earlier when we were talking today about how you and I both hit the same kind of milestone in starting families where all of a sudden something greater than us became that voice. What was it like for you?
Ryan Rutan: Yeah, it's same thing, you know, like I think you, you said something that ties directly to this, which was we have a high tolerance for this kind of thing, like we have a high tolerance for deferring happiness, for deferring joy, for deferring time on ourselves, and just accumulating maladies of of physical and mental and emotional states and and foregoing relationships, doing all this other stuff. But at some point when we became partners to wives and fathers to children, all of a sudden I have 4 other people's tolerances to consider. They as tolerant of my ability to just sit at this desk and pour myself into a monitor for 1819 hours a day. The answer is no, they're not, right? At at the point at which I realized it was costing them. And there are times where like, yesterday, right? Yesterday I took off at like 2 in the afternoon my time for a couple hours to go pick up my daughters, take them to a soccer match, watch them play, and then, yeah, get them back to school, and then I came back to the house and continue working. At some points in the past. I think I still didn't really realize what all the costs of that were. I was like, you know, you, you think about the fact that like, I don't know whether it's whether you miss it or you know, they're gonna miss it, and whether that it's either guilt or just a fear of missing out or a combination of the two, kind of doesn't matter, but over over time, I've started to pay more attention to the fact that like it costs them something when I don't do that, right? And so and you don't get it back. You don't get it back, you don't get it back. And so I think being able to make those trade-offs, right? And I think that, you know, It's interesting, but you, you said something else that ties directly to this, which is that it's really hard for us to see those things. We will just continue to go and push and do, and we don't necessarily notice in our own lives what you had was so that we have to look outside, right? So whether it's your family or not, or you call a friend and find them floating in a pool at 2 o'clock in the afternoon on a Tuesday, the fact that we can't relate to someone else enjoying their lives just for the sake of that, probably our problem, not theirs.
Wil Schroter: Absolutely, absolutely, and again, and we need those lenses, even while it was happening, you know, I, I said to my friend, again, he's known me for a very long time, and he's a good sounding board, and I said, you know, I'm laughing about this because I know how ridiculous it is that I have a problem with it. And I said to him, I was like, if it were me, I would, I would be firing you right now on the phone. And I was like, but at the same time, I also know you're right, right, which is, which is even harder. And I think part of this is getting to a point where we stop and take stock of What our values are, like what's important to us just like you said with your daughter, and you say, these are my non-negotiables, right? These are the things that if the startup takes these, it's not OK anymore. It's, it's not a lack of having those things really laid out, laid out in in very big bold letters. You and I talked about this on previous episodes where we sat down early in the process of building this company and said these are our non-negotiables and to our jerks, right? We won't jerks, right? And when we get to jerky town with someone, we're like, you know, you've never been worth it, never been worth it. And every single time we were like 10% sure that this might be a good decision, it was always 100% a good decision. In
Ryan Rutan: hindsight, it was always like, yeah, and the only thing we ever questioned was why not sooner. Why not sooner,
Wil Schroter: right? And to be fair, those very same people go home and they're like, those guys are jerks. By the way, they're also right, not because I think we're jerks, right, but because, you know, they look at it, especially for being let go, as how dare them, etc.
Ryan Rutan: I was performing, even though I was a jerk.
Wil Schroter: Yeah, yeah,
Ryan Rutan: so why would they, they should have tolerated it,
Wil Schroter: again, again, and so, and that's one of them. Another one is, and you touched on this, our ability to be able to say what's my commitment to, let's say my family. And at what point have I given too much, or could I give too much? And the fact that you can look at the soccer game and say, hey, I get that I could, I could avoid this. I, I could not go, and the world wouldn't end. However, this is also one of the things that draws the line as to what my values are. And and if if I don't go, and again it would be different, Ryan, if we were right in the middle of closing some major deal, and there was some maker you're creating a whole other consequence, but fortunately we're not in that position where we have some kind of consequence, but like I think for me, I have this overarching consequence of success. Of responsibility, you know, things like that, that I can easily let trump everything. That excuse can easily apply to 16 hours of my day. I have to forcibly talk myself out of that excuse for every minute I don't spend with that excuse, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah,
Ryan Rutan: no, it's it's exactly the same for me. It's, it's the the calculation is always in, in that order. And my default is be here. For a lot of hours and do as much as I can, or more than I can, and just keep doing and you have to talk yourself out of it. I think where it came out you talked about some non-negotiables for me. I've got a couple, like one that's just super personal is sleep. I don't mess with it anymore, right? I try not to. My, my system's been messing messing with itself for the last couple weeks, but like, I try not to mess with sleep. Sleep is so important cause I'm way better all day when I have the right sleep. The other one, and This is something that I think I've been doing a fairly good job of for a couple of years now, but I just read something a few weeks ago that reinforced it from a a a childhood psychologist that said, your kids need you on their time and their terms, right? You can't say, oh, you want to talk about that? Well, I'm busy right now, we'll talk about it later. It doesn't work, right? There's a real cost to them in so many ways because the fact that was important then is why it's important. And so I really tried to do that and just say like, look, I can run to catch up on work. I can, I'll bend my sleep, right? If I have to, right? I will sacrifice that personally so that they're not forced to sacrifice something during their, you know, important years of personal development. I'm taking a step further where I've applied it to my wife as well. And if she needs something, she gets it then, right? My kids need something, they get it then. The way I analogize it to myself cause for me, the the going back to my early soccer days always helps. And I said, you know what, it's like having to run out of position to cover somebody else, right? It's the right thing to do in the moment. Now, I know I'll have to run extra hard to get back to my position to make sure that I'm not letting somebody else down, but if I gotta go cover somebody's spot, I gotta get over there because the cost and the consequence of that is immediate. The cost and consequence of me being out of position is something that happens later, and I can do my best to deal with it, right? And I think that the startup founders were pretty good at being able to run fast to catch up.
Wil Schroter: You know, something that's really funny about everything we talk about here is that none of it is new. Everything you're dealing with right now has been done 1000 times before you, which means the answer already exists, you may just not know it, but that's OK. That's kind of what we're here to do. We talk about this stuff on the show, but we actually solve these problems all day long at groups.startups.com. So if any of this sounds familiar, stop guessing about What to do. Let us just give you the answers to the test and be done with it. There is no point within my work week, the Monday through Friday, where I ever feel like I am justified for not working. And I'm not comparing this to yours, what I'm saying is it's one of the things I spend a lot of time thinking about. Let me give you some also how I, I mitigate that. One of the things I do, uh, and we've talked about this in previous episodes, is I'm hyper specific about what needs to get done today. Because if I'm not, I don't say here's the one thing that needs to get done today, I always start with one cause if if I don't get one done, it doesn't matter if I have 2. But here's the one thing I have to get done, and let's say I, I motor through that went faster than I expected it to, and I got 2 and 3 done, cool. Now I know that I can just keep adding more shit to the list. That's just the nature, the list never ends, right? The only way I've been able to kind of like, quote, free myself from guilt is by accomplishing things. If I knew I accomplished something, it kind of took some of. the mental, like the guilt off me. But if I think that I'm not accomplishing something, work could be getting done and I'm not doing it. I'm not in a great place, right? I'm just not. And I don't love that.
Ryan Rutan: I I think that the way it's worked for me is that I, instead of feeling like down in guilt, it fires me up to like be super productive when I get back to it, right? And a lot of times like when I was driving to to pick up the kids yesterday, right, it's 15 minute drive over to where I had to grab them. So on the way over there, I was doing voice notes on the ad copy that I was gonna write when I got back, cause that's what I paused to go do that, right? I had some ads I wanted to get out and I said, all right, I'm gonna go do this thing and said, that time, get myself fired up. OK. So then when I get back, I've got, I've got the the core of what I need, right? And it's not like it's, we're never really off, right? It's so hard to completely switch off car by myself. I've got some time. And so for me. What I've been trying to do is just use that as the motivation, right? That instead of letting that feeling just kind of like sour within me, trying to use this little bit of fuel to say, OK, I'm gonna go do this, and I'm grateful that I can go do this thing with my kids. I'm gonna use that gratitude and the fact that I am a little anxious about not being at my desk to do this right now to to to elevate the work when I get back to it. And I think it's like that seems to be working.
Wil Schroter: I also think that if we look at kind of the the the ROI if you will, that our startups provide for us, the obvious one is profit, but the the the reason that's a tough one to To always align to is because most of us won't get to a profitable startup anytime soon. So what ends up happening is we're like, once we get to profit, once we make a lot of money, then we'll be happy and you know, that's a, it's a bit of an elusive goal, but let's, we'll save that for another podcast. But because the startup is perpetually not as successful as we want it to be. We always feel like all other costs or commitments are justified until we get to that threshold, OK? What we lose when we're using that kind of math that like it's just numeric dollar sign math profit equals success equals happiness, is that we We can use that as an escape to make ourselves miserable along the way. It's basically saying, hey, we just keep extending the finish line, but the race is so grueling and so awful that even if we cross the finish line, it won't have mattered. We'll be dead by then. It's dangerous when we don't see the other types of ROI we need to be extracting from the startup.
Ryan Rutan: For you, when, when you think about those other types of ROI, where would you, and clearly like we have to be performing in the startups, right? It doesn't doesn't work otherwise, but I think the misnomer for me has always been that like there were these points, right? You said it, like there's milestones we hit where all of a sudden then it'll be OK. I've been in positions where I, I loved my revenue numbers and I hated my life, right? So it isn't necessarily correlated. There's also been times where like I've loved my life and just made peace with the fact that revenue wasn't what I wanted, but hating my life and and designing a life that I hated wasn't going to help me hit revenue numbers, right? Growth on paper means nothing if it's fueling misery. And so we've got to find some kind of balance in that. But for you, what would be the right after the the the startup metrics, like what's the next one that matters to you most?
Wil Schroter: I think part of Is working on something that I care about, right? Uh, that's been probably maybe the number one ROI at startups.com for me, and I'm guessing maybe for you all, I don't want to put words in your mouth. I love who I work for being the, the startups, and I love the value of, of, of what we provide. Now, to be fair, if I wanted to optimize just for income, I'd probably go work at a public company, right? And climb the ranks and And be manager guy. I would be miserable, right? I'm sure of it. I would be miserable, but I could make more money doing that. However, and this goes back to the ROI, I wouldn't get any ROI. I'd have more money in the bank, but be less happy. And if money is, is a conduit partially to happiness, right, then I would actually be short circuiting that because I'd be getting the money, but not any of the happiness. And so when I look at startups I've built in the past. Not that I didn't like them, but they had no emotional ROI. When I ran an ad agency, like the work was kind of interesting, but I didn't jump out of bed in the morning and being like, I can't wait to help Best Buy sell more digital cameras, right? I don't care. Whereas with what we do, like later on today, we're gonna get on the phone, um, oh, I'm, I've got a bunch of office hours calls with a bunch of founders, and I'm gonna help them work through tons of problems. And I love that. And to be fair, their gratitude is phenomenal, right? They're like, man, I didn't even see that or you helped me through a really tough time period. Ryan, we get this from a lot of people that, that listen to the show,
Ryan Rutan: right? Yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah, we hear that kind of feedback all the time. Uh, we get it from our office hours. Uh, I get the same thing from the workshops I do on Mondays and Fridays around getting customers. It just always feels amazing, right? And, and those kind of things truly are. I think I said this a couple of weeks ago in, in the Team Slack. I was saying. Like, those are the moments that pumped me up. Like I was heads down and grinding. I was, you know, trying to find a smoking gun around a problem I was having with HubSpot, couldn't find it and it was driving me crazy, and it could have completely changed my week. And instead, I was like, I get so fired up by those things that we get to do, those interactions that we have with the, with the startup founders that at that point, like, it just, it fills you up, right? And if your startup is constantly leaving you feeling hollow, then any returns. You're generating as a result of that kind of get couched as losses in my book, man, because emotional bankruptcy is a real thing. Like it's a it's a very real thing, and I'd say that it is almost always hand in hand with burnout for me, or maybe even the precursor cause for the burnout. Like you and I both have incredible motors, we can just keep working. That's not the problem, right? When, when the work no longer rewards intrinsically, not extrinsically, then I think it starts to fall really flat for me.
Wil Schroter: I agree. I also think this is, this is minor. I don't think you and I've talked about this much, but I think just the way we've designed our business, nothing to do with the, the, the industry we're in or anything else like that. I mean, the actual business that we run, we're very hands off with the team, right? A team has a phenomenal level of autonomy and, and for me that's a reflection because I don't want to be up in people's business all day. Right, that brings me no pleasure whatsoever. In fact, the more I have to do it, the more miserable I am. But, but I think it's a flip side from a culture standpoint, the folks that work with us enjoy a phenomenal level of autonomy. We also know that they don't always work, right? There are some people that look at it as autonomy as time in the pool, right? I'm kidding, but like, yeah, and there's some people look at autonomy and say, I can't wait to do great work, and I'm gonna do it on a schedule that works great for me. And we have plenty of those people here that can do that. But what I'm saying is from kind of how we've designed this company and how it's evolved, I'm really proud of that. You know, I'm really proud of of that level of autonomy. I'm really proud that we have a culture that. Supports that because right, if we had a different version, OK, where in our culture, it was all about hierarchy, it was about 360 degree reviews. It was about basically, uh, micromanagement, etc.
Ryan Rutan: I
Wil Schroter: wouldn't want to work at that company.
Ryan Rutan: Yeah, yeah.
Wil Schroter: I wouldn't want to work at that company, right?
Ryan Rutan: Leadership, great. Management, not so good, right? It's just, it's the worst. It's the worst.
Wil Schroter: There's a time and a place for it. I totally respect it. I'm not saying management is awful. I'm saying I just don't enjoy it, right? I just don't enjoy at that level. I want to work with people who have autonomy. I wanna work with people that are self-motivated. Again, that doesn't always work. I would say more often than not it doesn't work. As an example, this is again, this is we're 10. a little bit, but like, we don't do personnel reviews. We've never done them. There's been no 360 degree review. There's been nothing, right? And my take on that, again, this is all about building something that like works for you. My take on that is, if I can't manage the person day to day with expectations and I have to wait a year to tell them they're not doing a good job, what the hell am I doing? And, and if, if the person I'm working with has No idea how well they're doing. I'm like, I'm really bad at my job. Now, I'm, uh, maybe it's me just being lazy, but I found that the people who work really well work just fine in that, uh, that environment and the people that don't, don't. But my point is, those things don't make me happy. And so I've generally said, OK, let's build a system that works for us. We don't have to do those things. I think it's powerful.
Ryan Rutan: It is, and look, I think there are some of the best decisions we've made, and you know, they don't show up directly on a P&L. Clearly I think that they do impact it, but they're not the kind of things where it just shows directly on on a P&L, but they keep us energized, they keep us happy, they keep us creative, and that matters a lot, right? You can't deposit happiness and. Bank, I suppose, but you can't buy your sanity back with money either. So we gotta be careful with what we're trading at any given point.
Wil Schroter: You know, here's a different way I'd phrase it. Money makes me safe, but the work I do and how I spend my time makes me happy. Can, can, yeah, I'm saying
Ryan Rutan: like in this case that's the important part.
Wil Schroter: In this case it it it does and and let me build on that. I've spent way too much time thinking about the things that make me happy, uh, the activities that make me happy. Fun fact, they generally don't cost anything, right? The, the, the things that I enjoy doing, I enjoy playing hockey, I enjoy spending time with my family, I enjoy uh building stuff and whatever. They generally don't cost much. I'm building a house now that that does cost money, but it that's just incidental. I could be working on anything else as a project, you know, like that wouldn't necessarily have that cost associated with it. And so again, I Get money, not as if I have more, my happiness is gonna go up, but if I have left my safety is gonna go down. So I look at that as kind of like my baseline. In the formative years of my life before I was an adult, I was poor, and I wasn't unhappy, but I was very unsafe. And I can tell you from that experience, it's very hard to be consistently happy while being unsafe. Those two things there, there are a correlation. They're different, but they're correlated.
Ryan Rutan: They're diametrically opposed, right? Like, I'd say it's, I wouldn't say it's difficult. It's it's gotta be nearly impossible. Not safe, how can you be happy?
Wil Schroter: Conversely though, if you are safe, you know, you're financially well off, it also doesn't guarantee happiness. It doesn't work the other one. It's uh something I always say is money may not buy you happiness, but you're rarely happier without it.
Ryan Rutan: I think what it comes down to is figuring out what that like, what that actual threshold for safety is. Like at some point, if you just keep chasing more and more and more and more safety, like what are you building safety against, right? It's like the difference between, you know, having batteries in a flashlight. And building a bunker in your backyard, right, right, they're both derived some level of safety and then you got to decide how much safety do I actually need. I think that's where we, we get it wrong and maybe we don't take our, our foot off the, the safety gas pedals soon enough and start to apply some some effort to happiness because, you know, for years. We're measuring our success by how much discomfort we can tolerate, right? Like I'm willing to be here and I'm gonna grind, I'm gonna build, I'm gonna do, uh, and then we wonder why we're desperate to exit a business, right? Like, like you and I both were around the the agencies where it's like, I don't want to do this anymore, please off my hands and so. Yeah, I think it comes down to just picking that point and saying like this is safe enough, and now I can start to focus on bringing some joy into this equation.
Wil Schroter: But stick with that. I think it's important for at the very least for us to get like a milestone that says, hey, the business isn't where I want it to be yet. That's usually the case, OK? I get that. But that's not a perennial excuse for me to. Allow it to make me miserable all the time because if I agree that it's OK for the business to make me miserable, and this this has nothing to do with whether you're willing to sacrifice, there's always a sacrifice to be had. There's no deliberate stopping point in sacrifice. This goes back to the business being all consuming. And for decades, not even years, for decades, I didn't appreciate that threshold. I thought, wrongly. That there was something on the other side that would automatically tell me I don't have to behave like this anymore. And there wasn't. I mean, you know, one of the things I, when I talked to people who are substantially successful and they have bigger enterprises now, is they're like, I have way more mouths to feed now, right? Like my problems are much bigger now, like my pressure has gone way up, and I'm like, damn, not only have you not gotten over the threshold, you made it higher, right? That's scary.
Ryan Rutan: It goes back to something you said at the very beginning, which is like the the abusive relationship model where then you just start to build on that and you just continue to build more of that abuse into what you're doing, right? At some point, like, you all you're doing is creating more obligation to grind, right? And I think that one of the things for me, and, and this speaks to the fact that you said, you know, we built a team that we love, we love being with and we don't have to manage, we we've built clients that we love hanging out with and and can drive amazing results for. But I, I see so many founders building out of just fear and obligation. They're like, well, I've managed to get to this point now I just have to keep doing this because now it's at least paying the bills or whatever it is, whatever the thing that like maintenance will keep it will keep you some level of safe, right? I think if you ask most of those, if you took the obligation out of it, the obligation to grind against this thing, would you still do this? And I feel like in a lot of cases the answer would have been no. Like if I didn't feel obliged to grind towards the end of the agency, I would have stopped because I was not enjoying it. I wasn't building anything meaningful anymore and I just didn't really care about the business, and it sounds bad, but you've said the same thing before. I didn't really care about the clients, well, not in the same way that I care about some of the folks that you and I know within Startups. where like I legitimately care what happens to these people. Like I want to know, and I want you to feel good about it. But I think, you know, if, if you're not, if you can't say, if I take the obligation out of this, would I still grind in the same way, you're probably building something you're gonna resent at some point.
Wil Schroter: I agree. And what's interesting is how much of this is from our own making. This is, this is a little bit out there, but, but bear with me. I picture this version of me, OK? That's Edward Norton in Fight Club, OK? And I, and I've built this person that I live with being my startup, that's Tyler Durden, right? It's constantly pushing me to get my
Ryan Rutan: ass kicked to do things, right?
Wil Schroter: And at the end of the movie, I realize he's me. Yeah, like it wasn't actually a person. I was the one who created all that. And I think that's part of what this is, is we can wake up tomorrow and we can have the version of our startup company where we've got a happy relationship, a non abusive, or we can continue to create this fight club, Tyler Durden, Brad Pitt, you know, archetype that will constantly kick our ass and have us feel like we're a victim of this thing. The difference in the two is us, right? The difference of the two is our ability to wake up tomorrow and say to hell with this, right? I, I'm not gonna live like this. I'm not gonna create this thing that was supposed to be beautiful but becomes abusive and let that beat me. The only way I'm ever, ever, ever going to be able to get out of this trap is to wake up tomorrow and do it differently.
Ryan Rutan: Overthinking your startup because you're going it alone, you don't have to, and honestly, you shouldn't because instead, you can learn directly from peers who've been in your shoes. Connect with bootstrapped founders and the advisors helping them win in the startups.com community. Check out the Startups.com community at www.startups.com to see if it's for you. Could be just the thing you need. I hope to see you inside.